原文標(biāo)題為：

Сяоцзюнь Бу: ?Стремление к изучению культуры гораздо важнее развитых навыков проектирования и строительства?

鏈接：https://design-mate.ru/read/people/xiaojun-bu-interview

???? 日前，時境建筑接受了俄羅斯建筑平臺 Design Mate （https://design-mate.ru ）的俄語專訪，現(xiàn)轉(zhuǎn)載于時境建筑。訪談涉及到中西方設(shè)計文化對比，人口密度，設(shè)計強(qiáng)度，城市化等話題。

Recently, Time architecture accepted the Russian architectural platform Design Mate interview, now reproduced in Time architecture. The interview involved the comparison of Chinese and western design culture, population density, design intensity, urbanization and other topics.

學(xué)習(xí)文化的愿望
比設(shè)計和施工技能
的發(fā)展更重要

論壇 | 時境建筑在莫斯科：從小到大的實(shí)踐 (中文演講+俄語翻譯)

中國建筑師、Atelier Alter Architects 時境建筑聯(lián)合創(chuàng)始人卜驍駿在每個項目開始時都進(jìn)行了全面的文化探索。盡管致力于當(dāng)?shù)丨h(huán)境并仔細(xì)研究其祖國的建筑遺產(chǎn)，但工作室團(tuán)隊并沒有忘記建筑的創(chuàng)新成分和批判性方法的重要性。?在接受 Design ?Mate 采訪時，卜談到了東西方建筑的差異、現(xiàn)代城市多樣化的需要，以及“人”建筑。

??????? ??M：Design Mate
??????? ??X：卜驍駿

??M：您說您生長在一個工匠家庭，從小就想將生活與創(chuàng)造力聯(lián)系起來。?您對這個職業(yè)的期望合理嗎？

You mentioned that you grew up in a creative family and wanted to be an architect from a young age. Have your expectations of the profession been met?

??X：事實(shí)上我并不是來自一個藝術(shù)之家，但我的爺爺是一個木匠，我的爸爸也傳承了很多工具技巧給我。兒時的我對于空間科學(xué)、物理極為著迷，并對平面設(shè)計充滿了憧憬。直到通過中國的高考，我獲得了極高的分?jǐn)?shù)，可以選擇中國最好的學(xué)校，我才知道我可以選擇建筑學(xué)專業(yè)。在此之后，我接受了9年的建筑學(xué)專業(yè)教育，包括清華大學(xué)和哈佛大學(xué)，并到美國的SOM紐約工作了4年。得益于中國的建筑大潮的鼓動，在清華大學(xué)期間我就知道我可以開一間屬于自己的事務(wù)所，并在之后的求學(xué)過程中被Mansilla & Tunon（Spain）和 Byoungsoo Cho (Korea) 先生指導(dǎo)說我應(yīng)該為我自己工作。

目前為止，我依然認(rèn)為這是非常適合我這個個體的一個專業(yè)，它擁有相當(dāng)強(qiáng)的夢想的成分，并且通過自己的工作達(dá)到為社會服務(wù)的體驗(yàn)非常令人振奮，而不是一味的為自己的薪水所工作。作為我的個人的成長而言，它也是非常棒的專業(yè)，我能夠感受到我的個人哲學(xué)在伴隨著專業(yè)知識的成長而逐漸變成熟。

In fact, I don't come from an artistic family, but my grandfather was a carpenter, and my father passed on a lot of tools and skills to me. As a child, I was fascinated by space science and physics, and full of longing for graphic design. I didn't know I could major in architecture until I passed China's college entrance examination and got a very high score, which allowed me to choose the best school in China. After that, I received 9 years of architecture education, including Tsinghua University and Harvard GSD, and worked in SOM New York for 4 years. Inspired by China's architecture boom, I knew at Tsinghua University that I could open my own practice and was instructed by Mansilla & Tunon (Spain) and Byoung Soo Cho (Korea) during my studies that I should work for myself.

So far, I still think this major is very suitable for me as an individual. It has a strong component of dream, and the experience of serving the society through my own work is very exciting, rather than working for my own salary. As far as my personal growth is concerned, it is also a very good major, and I can feel that my personal philosophy is gradually becoming mature along with the growth of professional knowledge.

??M：您稱您的實(shí)踐為跨學(xué)科的。?它用什么來表達(dá)？

You describe your practice as interdisciplinary. What does that entail?

??X：天然的，建筑設(shè)計就需要與工程、結(jié)構(gòu)、新的電器等專業(yè)合作，在建筑設(shè)計層面除了常規(guī)的策劃專業(yè)、社會學(xué)專業(yè)合作，在我們的工作流程中，還經(jīng)常要與材料研究者、機(jī)械發(fā)明家、導(dǎo)演、藝術(shù)家、新媒體工作者合作，這種合作并不是單單把他們的需要接納進(jìn)來，而是和他們一起討論、獲得設(shè)計的靈感、把他們的創(chuàng)作工作變成建筑創(chuàng)作的一部分來影響我們的建筑和城市空間。這些并不意味著建筑學(xué)內(nèi)核的泛華或者瓦解，而是對社會復(fù)雜性的回應(yīng)和公平創(chuàng)作意識的覺醒。

Naturally, architectural design needs to cooperate with engineering, structure, new electrical appliances and other majors. In addition to the conventional planning and sociology majors, in the architectural design level, we often cooperate with material researchers, mechanical inventors, directors, artists, and new media workers in our work flow. Such cooperation does not only include their needs. It's about discussing with them, getting ideas for design, and making their creative work part of the architecture that affects our buildings and urban Spaces. These do not mean the expansion or disintegration of the architectural core, but the response to social complexity and the awakening of fair creative consciousness.

??M：你們事務(wù)所的工作是基于什么原則？

What principles is your firm built upon?

??X：創(chuàng)新大于完美，批判性大于美學(xué)，文化發(fā)掘大于成熟建造技巧。

Innovation is greater than perfection, criticality is greater than aesthetics, and cultural exploration is greater than mature building skills

建成項目：五里春秋泛文化藝術(shù)中心

??M：您不僅在中國從事項目，還在其他國家從事項目。?您注意到西方和東方建筑方法的差異嗎？

You work on projects not only in China but also in other countries. What key differences do you see between Western and Eastern architectural approaches?

??X：由于中國這二十年的建筑繁榮，大量的資金賦予了本土建筑師很多自由，他們得以自由的釋放自己的觀點(diǎn)并迎合中國的觀眾，我們似乎發(fā)現(xiàn)了跨越東方西方的不同。如果拋開建造技術(shù)的先進(jìn)程度的區(qū)別，最大的不同我認(rèn)為依然來自于文化。

西方建筑學(xué)目前雖然已經(jīng)面臨著媒體時代的沖擊變得越來越分崩離析，但依然在'有關(guān)創(chuàng)新'的思考方法方面占據(jù)著絕對優(yōu)勢，這似乎是關(guān)于西方知識文化的同一根源性有著極大的聯(lián)系，并且得益于科學(xué)共同體的系統(tǒng)優(yōu)勢，'創(chuàng)新'本身也在西方更加容易形成力量。當(dāng)然來自東方的學(xué)生通過大量的留學(xué)并回到東方國家給這些國家?guī)砹私ㄖ?chuàng)作的新的可能性，并且由于中國的經(jīng)濟(jì)的崛起使得東方的作品幾乎可以與西方的作品平分秋色，但總的來說東方在現(xiàn)代建筑領(lǐng)域依然是西方的學(xué)生，不論是建筑學(xué)還是建造學(xué)。

得益5000年以上的歷史文化，中國作為一個唯一存活到現(xiàn)在的古老文明，中國人以及概念上的東方人（包括日本韓國越南），他們的建筑則更加擅長對于文化的關(guān)照，尤其是在當(dāng)下中國幾乎成為了建筑的主要實(shí)踐陣地這一事實(shí)更加讓大量出色的中國建筑師跳上原來被西方霸占的舞臺，而西方的經(jīng)濟(jì)頹勢更加助長了最近二十年西方建筑領(lǐng)域'反建筑學(xué)'的傾向，這一傾向集中體現(xiàn)在功能主義、綠色建筑、碳中和建筑的興盛，而這些面臨更加擅長宏大敘事的中國建筑師而言似乎沒有太大的吸引力。

Thanks to China's architecture boom of the last two decades, a lot of money has given local architects a lot of freedom to release their own ideas and cater to Chinese audiences, and we seem to have discovered a difference across East and West. If you put aside the difference in the advanced level of construction technology, I think the biggest difference still comes from culture.

Although Western architecture has been facing the impact of the media age and has become more and more fragmented, it still occupies an absolute advantage in the thinking method of "innovation", which seems to be closely related to the same origin of Western knowledge and culture, and thanks to the systematic advantages of the scientific community, "innovation" itself is more easily formed in the West. Of course, students from the East bring new possibilities of architectural creation to these countries by studying abroad in large numbers and returning to the eastern countries. Moreover, due to the rise of China's economy, Oriental works are almost equal to Western works. However, generally speaking, Oriental is still Western's students in the field of modern architecture, whether it is architecture or construction.

Benefiting from more than 5,000 years of history and culture, China is the only ancient civilization that has survived to the present, and the Chinese and the conceptual Orientals (including Japan, South Korea and Vietnam), their architecture is better at caring for culture. In particular, the fact that China has almost become the main practice field of architecture makes a large number of outstanding Chinese architects jump on the stage previously occupied by the West, and the Western economic downturn has further encouraged the trend of "anti-architecture" in the Western architectural field in the past two decades, which is mainly reflected in the prosperity of functionalism, green buildings and carbon-neutral buildings. These Chinese architects, who are better at grand storytelling, do not seem to have much appeal.

英良石材自然歷史博物館 2023 回訪

建成作品：英良石材自然歷史博物館

事實(shí)上，中國是唯一文明
幸存至今的古國之一，
因此這個國度的人民都在
小心翼翼地對待他們的文化

??M：許多領(lǐng)先的建筑公司正在積極尋求在中國開展業(yè)務(wù)。?您認(rèn)為是什么吸引他們來到您的國家？這里有哪些機(jī)會？

Many leading architectural firms actively strive to work in China. In your opinion, what attracts them to your country and what opportunities are available here?

??X：顯然，除了責(zé)任建筑師必須是中國建筑師之外，這里的建筑市場是開放的，大量的建筑需求刺激了對先進(jìn)建筑的需要，在2000年之后，大量國家級的建筑就被外國人獲得了設(shè)計權(quán)，如國家大劇院、CCTV 、鳥巢等，它們的成功刺激了越來越多有野心和競爭力的境外建筑師來這里打獵，當(dāng)然中國建筑師也不是坐以待斃 - 我就是接受挑戰(zhàn)并勇敢的走出國門并接受西方教育的廣大年輕的建筑師的一員，學(xué)成之后，我?guī)е鞣降慕逃氐搅酥袊㈤_始了自己的實(shí)踐 - 目前看，通過十年的追趕和中國境內(nèi)的激烈競爭，中國的建筑設(shè)計水平已經(jīng)非常接近西方國家。我想，目前這些領(lǐng)先的西方建筑事務(wù)所不光擁有設(shè)計的權(quán)利，同時也擁有與中國建筑師同臺競爭的機(jī)會，這也是建筑交流的重要的一部分。

Obviously, in addition to the fact that the AOR (architect on record) must be a Chinese architect, the architecture design market here is open, and a large number of architectural demands stimulate the need for advanced buildings. After 2000, a large number of national-level buildings have been designed by foreigners, such as the National Opera Hall, CCTV, Bird's Nest, etc. Their success has stimulated more and more ambitious and competitive foreign architects to hunt here, of course, Chinese architects are not sitting still - I was one of the many young architects who accepted the challenge and bravely went abroad and received Western education. After completing my study, I returned to China with Western education and started my own practice - so far, After ten years of catch-up and fierce competition within China, the level of architectural design in China has been very close to that of Western countries. I think that now these leading Western architects not only have the right to design, but also have the opportunity to compete with Chinese architects on the same stage, which is an important part of the architectural exchange.

建成項目：英良石材檔案館

??M：當(dāng)前世界，特別是中國等人口稠密國家面臨的問題是快速城市化。?在當(dāng)今城市人口過剩的背景下，建筑師面臨著哪些挑戰(zhàn)？

The current pressing issue in the world, particularly in densely populated countries like China, is rapid urbanization. What challenges do architects face today in the context of overcrowded cities?

??X：事實(shí)上相對于一般的對于城市擁擠的抱怨，長期居住在北京和紐約這樣的大城市，我認(rèn)為這種過度集中反而是一種好處 - 包括集約的資源和高效的能源、交通資源使用效率，發(fā)達(dá)的教育水平，高度互聯(lián)的產(chǎn)業(yè)鏈，而這些都依托在現(xiàn)代城市對于人口密度和建筑密度的規(guī)劃設(shè)計 - 以我之見并沒有覺得過于不方便。

然而在我們的設(shè)計工作當(dāng)中會出現(xiàn)新的一些設(shè)計趨勢和反思，例如我們是反對千城一面的,我們需要獲得城市的多樣性：一些城市已經(jīng)存在著建筑群的缺乏多樣性和創(chuàng)造性的問題。建筑師需要考慮到不同文化和社區(qū)的需求，為城市提供更加多樣化和獨(dú)特的建筑設(shè)計。

In fact, compared with the general complaints about urban congestion, I think that such excessive concentration is a benefit, including intensive resources and efficient energy and transportation resource use efficiency, advanced education level, highly connected industrial chain, and so on. These are all based on the planning and design of population density and building density in modern cities - in my opinion, I do not find it too inconvenient.

However, in our design work, there will be some new design trends and reflections. For example, we are against the uniformity of thousands of cities, and we need to obtain the diversity of cities: some cities already have the problem of lack of diversity and creativity in architectural buildings. Architects need to take into account the needs of different cultures and communities to provide more diverse and unique architectural designs for cities.

??M：您是否也嘗試在您的項目中保留并反映該國的文化背景？如果有，通過什么方法？

Do you strive to preserve and reflect the cultural context of the country in your projects? If so, through what methods or techniques?

??X：事實(shí)上，我們試圖在保留關(guān)于一個項目的各個層面上的文化背景，關(guān)于中國性的保留只是其中一個環(huán)節(jié)，在特定的項目條件下，中國性會非常突出，在有些條件下，中國性很弱，而其他更強(qiáng)烈的文化屬性會被加強(qiáng)。

在我們的研究中，這部分工作被我們認(rèn)為是設(shè)計強(qiáng)度的重要組成部分，我們把它當(dāng)做文化考古來對待。具體來講我們開啟一個項目時，我們會開展廣泛的搜索，來確認(rèn)在這個文化交織的網(wǎng)絡(luò)中哪個是最為強(qiáng)烈的，有時候是地理、地質(zhì)，有時候是一塊化石，有時候是當(dāng)?shù)氐纳鐓^(qū)習(xí)俗，有時候是多個宗教的沖突；在判斷后一個主導(dǎo)的文化要素會領(lǐng)導(dǎo)整個項目的啟動，我們會從中抽取設(shè)計語言并變成建筑。這有時候很玄妙，但這就是我們的每日工作。我們還在清華大學(xué)教授大師班，來更加安靜的探討這個方法論。

In fact, we try to preserve the cultural context of a project at all levels, and the preservation of Chineseness is only one part of the whole. In certain project conditions, Chineseness will be very prominent, in some conditions, Chineseness will be weak, and other stronger cultural attributes will be strengthened.

In our research, this part of the work is considered to be an important part of 'design intensity', and we treat it like 'culture artifact'. Specifically, when we start a project, we conduct extensive searches to identify which is the strongest in this web of cultural interweaving, sometimes it's geography, geology, sometimes it's a fossil, sometimes it's a local community custom, sometimes it's a clash of religions; After judging, the dominant cultural element will lead the start of the whole project, from which we will extract the architecture syntax and turn it into architecture. It's mysterious sometimes, but it's what we do every day. We also teach master classes at Tsinghua University to discuss this methodology more intensively.

??M：您的工作涉及公共空間——體育、文化和博物館。?什么樣的現(xiàn)代公共空間才能讓人感到舒適？

You work extensively with public spaces - sports, cultural, and museum spaces. What should a modern public space be like in order for people to feel comfortable?

??X：今天的公共建筑在中國往往需要一種更為強(qiáng)烈的意見或觀點(diǎn)所凝固而成的空間形態(tài)，因?yàn)樵谄矫婷襟w泛濫的今天，似乎必須有更有力量更為超現(xiàn)實(shí)的公共空間才能讓人們走出手機(jī)世界，這很不幸但確實(shí)是我們所經(jīng)歷的。

以作為建筑空間需要權(quán)衡好宏大敘事和近人尺度之間的過渡關(guān)系，這兩者需要有嫻熟的手法才能連接妥當(dāng)，而不是突然的從城市空間直接降落的人的尺度。這意味著設(shè)計者需要對城市敘事一直到室內(nèi)設(shè)計領(lǐng)域都有相應(yīng)的實(shí)踐經(jīng)驗(yàn)并擁有自己的設(shè)計語言。

Today's public buildings in China often need a spatial form solidified by stronger opinions or viewpoints, because in today's flood of 2d media, it seems that there must be more powerful and surreal public spaces to let people out of the world of mobile phones. This is unfortunate but it is indeed what we have experienced.

Therefore, as an architectural space, it is necessary to balance the transition relationship between macro narrative and micro scale, and the two need to be skillfully connected, rather than the human scale that suddenly falls directly from the urban space. This means that designers need to have practical experience in urban narrative all the way to interior design and have their own design language.

??M：今天的建筑應(yīng)該更加“人性化”嗎？?您會如何描述這種方法？

Should architecture today be more "human-centric"? How would you describe such an approach?

??X：這似乎是一個永恒正確的選擇，但很遺憾，這個觀點(diǎn)這對于承載著復(fù)雜社會功能的建筑這一領(lǐng)域會顯得力不從心，至少有時候不會放在最重要的角度來加以考慮。反倒是在城市設(shè)計領(lǐng)域，以人的新的社會活動為中心的設(shè)計方法變得越來越流行。

在我們的實(shí)踐中，我們較少的考慮人的身體的舒適性或者視覺的預(yù)約與否這些方面，我們更多的是在對功能的創(chuàng)新中實(shí)現(xiàn)對人的考慮，這是非常有挑戰(zhàn)的領(lǐng)域，比方說如何通過大型的懸挑屋面把一個封閉的體育館延伸到整個校園，通過透明的空間分隔讓更多人的學(xué)生來到這里能夠體驗(yàn)到不同的運(yùn)動課程。

This may seem like an eternally correct choice, but unfortunately, this view is inadequate for the field of architecture, which carries much more complex social functions, at least sometimes not considered in the most important perspective. On the contrary, in the field of urban design, the design method centered on people's new social activities has become more and more popular.

In our practice, we pay less attention to people's physical comfort or visual pleasure, and more attention to people in the innovation of program, which is a very challenging field, for example, how to extend a closed gymnasium to the whole campus through a large cantilevered roof. Through the transparent space separation, more students can come here to experience different sports courses.

建成作品：北京理工大學(xué)文體中心

??M：在一次采訪中，您說重要的是不要重復(fù)您之前的建筑師已經(jīng)創(chuàng)建和實(shí)施的內(nèi)容。21世紀(jì)是否有可能發(fā)明一些全新的東西？

In one of your interviews, you mentioned that it is important for you not to repeat what other architects have already created and realized before you. Is it realistic to invent something fundamentally new in the 21st century? Tell us about your experiments and search for innovative solutions.

??X：老實(shí)講，甚至很多老師都認(rèn)為這是不現(xiàn)實(shí)的，但是我們并不這么認(rèn)為，我們認(rèn)為即使我們的創(chuàng)作時基于建筑教育、基于對周邊世界的觀察，但創(chuàng)新是有其實(shí)際的語境的，尤其是在接近藝術(shù)的領(lǐng)域。我想你們也一定見過。我這里簡單舉幾個例子：比如DSR的早期作品Blur，一些屬于藝術(shù)家個人語言的藝術(shù)。

To be honest, even many teachers think this is unrealistic, but we don't think so. We think that even if our creation is based on architectural education and observation of the surrounding world, innovation has its practical context, especially in the field of art. I'm sure you've seen it, too. For example, DSR's early work 'Blur'; also some art belongs to the artist's personal language.

雕塑：西涌深圳雙年展作品天空的眼淚Tear of Sky?

??X：我們依然希望在某個領(lǐng)域里能夠做到來自我們事務(wù)所的原創(chuàng)想法，或者原創(chuàng)建筑語言，這并不艱難，有時候很大的建筑、有時候很小的家具都能做到嶄新的創(chuàng)造，我們需要很多的多學(xué)科研究，相互交錯的信息往往能誕生新的想法；另一個重要的途徑是通過長期的堅持工作，深度本身就能把你帶到?jīng)]有競爭對手的創(chuàng)作頂峰。

We still hope to achieve original ideas or original architectural syntax from our studio in a certain field, which is not difficult. Sometimes large buildings and sometimes small furniture can be completely new creation. We need a lot of multidisciplinary research, and the interlacing information can often give birth to new ideas. Another important way is through long-term, consistent work, depth itself can take you to the top of the creative peak without competition.

??M：您如何描述“未來的架構(gòu)”？?目前建筑領(lǐng)域流行的主要趨勢是什么？

How would you describe the "architecture of the future"? What are the prevailing key trends in the field of architecture today?

??X：我心目中的未來建筑依然是被定義為能作為建筑學(xué)核心開創(chuàng)者的建筑。很奇怪的是這樣的建筑越來越少了，一方面我認(rèn)為是政治正確正在將建筑拉向綜合實(shí)力較弱的一方，另一方面是媒體的傳播方式的變化使得媒體力量變成了建筑力量的一部分。

我認(rèn)為當(dāng)今建筑的主流趨勢依然與經(jīng)濟(jì)有很大的關(guān)聯(lián)，經(jīng)濟(jì)周期下行必然導(dǎo)致大眾審美趨向于減少浮夸和貼近功能主義的藝術(shù)形態(tài)。

In my mind, the future architecture is still defined as the architecture that can be the core pioneer of architecture. It is very strange that there are less and less such buildings. On the one hand, I think it is political correctness that is pulling the architecture to the side with weak comprehensive strength. On the other hand, the change of media communication mode makes the media power become a part of the architectural power.

In my opinion, the mainstream trend of today's architecture is still closely related to the economy, and the downward economic cycle will inevitably lead to the public aesthetic tendency to reduce the grandiosity and the art form close to functionalism.

在建｜中法生態(tài)城文體中心項目紀(jì)實(shí)

??M：分享您當(dāng)前的項目和即將到來的計劃。

Please share your current projects and upcoming plans.

??X：我們正在進(jìn)行的項目包括中國的幾個項目：一個位于武漢的90000平米的大型文化中心，一個關(guān)于食物的博物館，一個關(guān)于青銅器的博物館，一個恐龍化石博物館。我們還有4個位于德國的項目，一個位于莫斯科的項目。以及一系列在我們工作清單上的建筑競賽。

我們目前已經(jīng)有三年沒有發(fā)表過項目了，近期我們將會連續(xù)發(fā)表五個建成項目，希望能夠在不穩(wěn)定的經(jīng)濟(jì)環(huán)境中獲得更多的社會目光。

Our ongoing projects include several projects in China: a large cultural center of 90,000 square meters in Wuhan, a museum about food, a museum about bronzes, a museum about dinosaur fossils. We also have four projects in Germany and one in Moscow. And a series of architectural competitions on our to-do list.

We have not published a project in three years, and we will publish five completed projects in the near future, hoping to gain more social attention in an unstable economic environment.

感謝Plan The Best 傳播機(jī)構(gòu)和A-Class House Workshop在ARCH-Moscow展覽的框架內(nèi)組織了卜驍駿的參觀和演講，并協(xié)助我們進(jìn)行了采訪。

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